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	<title>Comments on: Hegeling for the Economic Center of Society: The Internet vs. The Financial System</title>
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	<link>http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/09/hegeling-for-the-economic-center-of-society-the-internet-vs-the-financial-system/</link>
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		<title>By: Naumi Haque</title>
		<link>http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/09/hegeling-for-the-economic-center-of-society-the-internet-vs-the-financial-system/comment-page-1/#comment-308794</link>
		<dc:creator>Naumi Haque</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/?p=4720#comment-308794</guid>
		<description>A thought regarding Denis’ point about the Internet providing additional information about externalities that the financial market struggles to deal with (i.e. more than simply price driving behavior): I’ve read some research recently that looked at eBay and Amazon.  Price in these Internet marketplaces only accounted for 50% or the buying decision – and additional 20% of the decision was attributed to ratings, and another 20% was attributed to unstructured comments and reviews (10% was other).  Seems like there’s definitely an added layer of behavioral impact created by the Internet, but what is really interesting is the ability now to quantify unstructured data and attribute a value to it (i.e. we can now start to quantify how much a comment is worth in dollar terms using data mining).  

If this type of information/data mining technology takes off, one can imagine a growing virtual currency that only exists on the Internet. In many respects, this currency already exists - it is comprised of reputation, ranking, and traffic (via links).  Would the financial system account for this additional layer of value in the market when the metrics are available to assign a monetary value to it? It’ll be interesting to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A thought regarding Denis’ point about the Internet providing additional information about externalities that the financial market struggles to deal with (i.e. more than simply price driving behavior): I’ve read some research recently that looked at eBay and Amazon.  Price in these Internet marketplaces only accounted for 50% or the buying decision – and additional 20% of the decision was attributed to ratings, and another 20% was attributed to unstructured comments and reviews (10% was other).  Seems like there’s definitely an added layer of behavioral impact created by the Internet, but what is really interesting is the ability now to quantify unstructured data and attribute a value to it (i.e. we can now start to quantify how much a comment is worth in dollar terms using data mining).  </p>
<p>If this type of information/data mining technology takes off, one can imagine a growing virtual currency that only exists on the Internet. In many respects, this currency already exists &#8211; it is comprised of reputation, ranking, and traffic (via links).  Would the financial system account for this additional layer of value in the market when the metrics are available to assign a monetary value to it? It’ll be interesting to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Denis</title>
		<link>http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/09/hegeling-for-the-economic-center-of-society-the-internet-vs-the-financial-system/comment-page-1/#comment-308692</link>
		<dc:creator>Denis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/?p=4720#comment-308692</guid>
		<description>I personally think that finance will remain the central &quot;pillar&quot; that networks the world together. What the internet can challenge is it&#039;s &quot;signaling&quot; power. One could argue that, historically, prices (of goods, services, and capital) were the only way to effectively communicate information, but as the Internet evolves and more knowledge can be both created and shared, different signals can be provided - and perhaps some that account for the externalities financial markets struggle to deal with. However, the &quot;prices&quot; not only provide information - they provide an incentive to act. Self-interested people are &quot;encouraged&quot;, through the pricing mechanism, to offer what others want / are willing to pay for, and stop doing what they don&#039;t want / aren&#039;t willing to pay for. Even if the internet provided &quot;perfect information&quot; that accounted for all externalities (etc.), it&#039;s hard to envision a model where the internet - in isolation - could drive behavior in a similar fashion. 

In terms of competition, it&#039;s important to note that much of &quot;capitalism&quot;, as it currently plays out, is trying to avoid competition - fairly or unfairly. One could argue that a major effect of the Internet has been moving more industries towards something that looks more like the &quot;perfect competition&quot; model taught in Eco 101 - where it is impossible to earn &quot;excess profits&quot;. It&#039;s capitalism at work, but many capitalists will work hard to resist it - preferring the higher profit making opportunities in monopoly and oligopoly industry structures. But real capitalists will just look at is another round of creative destruction and look for new &quot;signals&quot; on how they can make money. 

One final point - there does seem to be an underlying theme in such discussions that what &quot;big corporations&quot; do is inherently bad - which falls back on the traditional mindset that it&#039;s a small group of elites running the big companies for their own benefit, against the interest of the &quot;normal people&quot; who make up the majority of the population. But this is a false divide. I imagine you might consider BCE to be one of those &quot;big companies trying to bend the internet&quot;, and the tone implies this is bad for the &quot;little guy&quot;. But remember the privatization battle for BCE last year? One group was led by The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan; the other was led by the Canadian Pension Plan (CPP), which is the social security system the vast majority of Canadians are depending on. While it eventually fell through, there are MANY &quot;ordinary&quot; people that count on the profits from that &quot;big corporation&quot; to fund their retirements. And if you want to tie the Internet and finance together more directly, note that the CPP is now one of the major investors in Skype. In turn, basically every working Canadian, past and present, has a stake in seeing it make serious money. 

So while it may be true &quot;big corporations&quot; are trying to bend the Internet a certain way, many &quot;ordinary people&quot; will the main beneficiaries if they succeed. Makes for an interesting sub-plot: whether they know it or not, many people who rail against the &quot;evils of capitalism&quot; have made themselves wholly dependent on it continuing to churn out profits for them to live off of (particularly in retirement)... so they should be very careful about what they wish for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally think that finance will remain the central &#8220;pillar&#8221; that networks the world together. What the internet can challenge is it&#8217;s &#8220;signaling&#8221; power. One could argue that, historically, prices (of goods, services, and capital) were the only way to effectively communicate information, but as the Internet evolves and more knowledge can be both created and shared, different signals can be provided &#8211; and perhaps some that account for the externalities financial markets struggle to deal with. However, the &#8220;prices&#8221; not only provide information &#8211; they provide an incentive to act. Self-interested people are &#8220;encouraged&#8221;, through the pricing mechanism, to offer what others want / are willing to pay for, and stop doing what they don&#8217;t want / aren&#8217;t willing to pay for. Even if the internet provided &#8220;perfect information&#8221; that accounted for all externalities (etc.), it&#8217;s hard to envision a model where the internet &#8211; in isolation &#8211; could drive behavior in a similar fashion. </p>
<p>In terms of competition, it&#8217;s important to note that much of &#8220;capitalism&#8221;, as it currently plays out, is trying to avoid competition &#8211; fairly or unfairly. One could argue that a major effect of the Internet has been moving more industries towards something that looks more like the &#8220;perfect competition&#8221; model taught in Eco 101 &#8211; where it is impossible to earn &#8220;excess profits&#8221;. It&#8217;s capitalism at work, but many capitalists will work hard to resist it &#8211; preferring the higher profit making opportunities in monopoly and oligopoly industry structures. But real capitalists will just look at is another round of creative destruction and look for new &#8220;signals&#8221; on how they can make money. </p>
<p>One final point &#8211; there does seem to be an underlying theme in such discussions that what &#8220;big corporations&#8221; do is inherently bad &#8211; which falls back on the traditional mindset that it&#8217;s a small group of elites running the big companies for their own benefit, against the interest of the &#8220;normal people&#8221; who make up the majority of the population. But this is a false divide. I imagine you might consider BCE to be one of those &#8220;big companies trying to bend the internet&#8221;, and the tone implies this is bad for the &#8220;little guy&#8221;. But remember the privatization battle for BCE last year? One group was led by The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan; the other was led by the Canadian Pension Plan (CPP), which is the social security system the vast majority of Canadians are depending on. While it eventually fell through, there are MANY &#8220;ordinary&#8221; people that count on the profits from that &#8220;big corporation&#8221; to fund their retirements. And if you want to tie the Internet and finance together more directly, note that the CPP is now one of the major investors in Skype. In turn, basically every working Canadian, past and present, has a stake in seeing it make serious money. </p>
<p>So while it may be true &#8220;big corporations&#8221; are trying to bend the Internet a certain way, many &#8220;ordinary people&#8221; will the main beneficiaries if they succeed. Makes for an interesting sub-plot: whether they know it or not, many people who rail against the &#8220;evils of capitalism&#8221; have made themselves wholly dependent on it continuing to churn out profits for them to live off of (particularly in retirement)&#8230; so they should be very careful about what they wish for.</p>
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		<title>By: Rico</title>
		<link>http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/09/hegeling-for-the-economic-center-of-society-the-internet-vs-the-financial-system/comment-page-1/#comment-308607</link>
		<dc:creator>Rico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/?p=4720#comment-308607</guid>
		<description>There is no question that the internet has the potential to level the playing field. I think it&#039;s optimistic to hope that it will be anything other than a structured, corporate beast over time, with only a small segment of people who operate their own &#039;freenet&#039;. 

Interesting thoughts, Mr. DeChambeau [if that is your real name].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no question that the internet has the potential to level the playing field. I think it&#8217;s optimistic to hope that it will be anything other than a structured, corporate beast over time, with only a small segment of people who operate their own &#8216;freenet&#8217;. </p>
<p>Interesting thoughts, Mr. DeChambeau [if that is your real name].</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/09/hegeling-for-the-economic-center-of-society-the-internet-vs-the-financial-system/comment-page-1/#comment-308554</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 19:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.wikinomics.com/blog/?p=4720#comment-308554</guid>
		<description>One could argue that the Internet has provided a forum for free markets to achieve their full potential - more perfect distribution of both goods and information to everyone participating.

Capitalism has been a target since at least the turn of the last century - doesn&#039;t make it any less secure than it was 100 years ago.  It&#039;s on a solid foundation - as alluded to in your posting: human freedom.  Competing models of facism and communism are direct contrasts to this model - control the people because they cannot/will not achieve their potential if left to their own devices.  These models are repugnant to human freedom, not merely &quot;competing approaches to how society should be structured.&quot;  They&#039;re not on equal footing but just happened to lose - they&#039;re inferior.

Addressing one of your closing questions - companies that perceive that the Internet poses a threat to capitalism and free-market economics are missing the mark.  The Internet needn&#039;t (doesn&#039;t) undo capitalism but rather lifts capitalism to the next level.  My hope is that the corporate-controlled Internet alluded to is nothing more than their blowing against the wind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One could argue that the Internet has provided a forum for free markets to achieve their full potential &#8211; more perfect distribution of both goods and information to everyone participating.</p>
<p>Capitalism has been a target since at least the turn of the last century &#8211; doesn&#8217;t make it any less secure than it was 100 years ago.  It&#8217;s on a solid foundation &#8211; as alluded to in your posting: human freedom.  Competing models of facism and communism are direct contrasts to this model &#8211; control the people because they cannot/will not achieve their potential if left to their own devices.  These models are repugnant to human freedom, not merely &#8220;competing approaches to how society should be structured.&#8221;  They&#8217;re not on equal footing but just happened to lose &#8211; they&#8217;re inferior.</p>
<p>Addressing one of your closing questions &#8211; companies that perceive that the Internet poses a threat to capitalism and free-market economics are missing the mark.  The Internet needn&#8217;t (doesn&#8217;t) undo capitalism but rather lifts capitalism to the next level.  My hope is that the corporate-controlled Internet alluded to is nothing more than their blowing against the wind.</p>
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